When “It’s Not That Bad” Is the Red Flag: Coercive Control, Intuition, and Self-Trust

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[00:00:36] Lauren Dry: Today I am joined by Cat Dunn, an award-winning online business manager, mentor, speaker, and host of the life [00:00:45] After I left Podcast. Cat helps visionary women simplify the systems and step into leadership.

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[00:01:13] Cat Dunn: Well, thank you so much for [00:01:15] having me. I really appreciate today. And as you can hear, I'm originally from England and now live in Melbourne, Australia. And I came to Australia for a relationship, and during that time, I discovered that I could have my own business and set up my life in a way that works [00:01:30] for me. The problem I was having is as much as I was thriving in business, as much as I was trying to build a life in a brand new country, my relationship was the biggest problem in my life because unfortunately, the person that I fell in love with turned out not to be a very nice [00:01:45] person, and I ended up in a domestic violence relationship.

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[00:02:07] Cat Dunn: And I wanna share today because women who are listening, this is affecting at least one in four women. [00:02:15] So no matter what room you're in or community you're in, what school ground you're in, anything like that, you're surrounded by women who are going through domestic violence or have lived experience or are experiencing it through a family member or a friend.

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[00:02:32] Lauren Dry: Cat, that's so powerful. And if you haven't heard that statistic before around how one in four women, have been subject to some kind of domestic violence. I mean, it's, it's, it's shocking. [00:02:45] I think when I look around at my friends, my family, the women I know, I think what stands out the most is, oh, it can't be one in four, can't be one in four.

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[00:03:25] Lauren Dry: when you match it up against that number of one in four women, it's, it's [00:03:30] overwhelming.

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[00:03:48] Cat Dunn: People hear that, those two words, and they see him physical, someone's being physically abused and that's not the case. And in my last domestic violence relationship, 'cause I've had more than one, unfortunately, [00:04:00] he never hit me, never hit me once because he is too smart for that. I was subjected to emotional manipulation, digital control, and coercive control. And so that stat's huge but I guarantee there'll be people listening who at some [00:04:15] point in their life date somebody who did actually subject them to some form of domestic violence, but they might not have been aware that's what was happening. You can start as small as someone telling you what you can and can't wear, who you can and can't see, [00:04:30] or when you're not with them, you have to respond right away.

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[00:04:50] Cat Dunn: How did you not see what was happening? Or the opinion of, well, that wouldn't happen to me. How many women haven't spoken up and shared how many women haven't reported this? That [00:05:00] statistic could actually be completely incorrect. It might be a lot higher. There's no shame around it because you've done nothing wrong. In my case, and a lot of survivors, all you did was just love someone with all of your heart and they abused it.

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[00:05:59] Cat Dunn: This is a really [00:06:00] difficult one because as much as we have started more conversations about it and shared warning signs, et cetera, what's happening as well is the term narcissist, or the term abuse is being thrown around a lot. Sometimes people are jumping to a conclusion [00:06:15] during an abusive relationship when maybe they had an argument or the boyfriend's seemed controlling, but was actually quite caring.

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[00:06:39] Cat Dunn: Who are you allowed to be around? Particularly when it comes to money. If someone is trying to control your money, that is a [00:06:45] huge warning sign that they're basically trying to make sure that you have to depend on them. it's such a thin line and it's such a difficult thing. And I really wish I could say, these are the three things to look for.

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[00:07:12] Cat Dunn: But by then, I was already hooked in [00:07:15] because I'd been through this before and it was so familiar to me to be a victim of my own circumstance, to not know that I deserve better. So if you really wanna identify. Whether or not you need support, whether you need to leave, I highly recommend [00:07:30] looking at organization websites if you're safe to do so.

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[00:07:51] Cat Dunn: The biggest thing I could say, and it might sound a little bit woo woo, women's level of intuition is unmatched. [00:08:00] You know that gut feeling, and when I say gut feeling, everybody's experienced it. As a woman, you know that when you walk around at night, you put your keys between your fingers. You don't go down the dark alleyway because your gut tells you to stay safe, to be safe. There'll be a point in your relationship that if you're questioning [00:08:15] whether or not this is good for you, that will kick in.

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[00:08:38] Lauren Dry: How would you support someone who, whose biggest question, and maybe they found themselves in [00:08:45] dynamics like this before, how do they know the difference between their intuition versus paranoia?

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[00:09:06] Lauren Dry: Okay. Yeah, and it's probably a powerful word you'd probably say like hypervigilance or, overprotection and hyper-awareness. [00:09:15] But, is there a time where you, you have felt challenged even in healthy situations and relationships where you, are putting yourself in the spot and saying, okay, what is my intuition?

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[00:10:21] Lauren Dry: how do you build up that muscle so that you can begin to determine the difference without feeling like you need to [00:10:30] choose, self abandonment in the interests of having connection with someone else, or safety in being alone.

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[00:11:13] Lauren Dry: Yeah.

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[00:11:28] Cat Dunn: You can clear out your thoughts. [00:11:30] You can feel so fresh and clean in your own head, but your body is where the triggers really lie. For example, last month, a song just played randomly in my apartment that I haven't heard since I left my last ex and my whole body shut down because I wasn't prepared for it.

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[00:12:00] Cat Dunn: You start to work on your biceps, you start to work on your six pack or whatever you want to do.

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[00:12:04] Cat Dunn: It's exactly the same way, and when you start to experience triggers or you start to be in a situation where you feel overwhelmed or your body starting shut down, my biggest advice would be it's [00:12:15] usually after the moment because if you're in it, you might freeze.

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[00:12:37] Cat Dunn: And ask my body, what do you need to feel safe? What do you need right now? And it literally could be just sit with me. It could be make [00:12:45] yourself a cup of tea, could be play a song and have a dance. It's gonna look different for everybody. If you don't pay attention to where it's emanating from and paying attention to where the trigger starts and how long you're sitting in that trigger, and what started the [00:13:00] trigger in the first place, you can't then work through it again using the analogy of a gym.

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[00:13:16] Lauren Dry: I'd love to hear a little bit more about your learning process, maybe in, in the first relationship where you, you experienced this maybe in the second. When did awareness start to come [00:13:30] to you that this was not a healthy dynamic, and how did you first navigate that, in a way that allowed you to slowly.

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[00:13:57] Cat Dunn: Before my last relationship, I was actually in [00:14:00] a nine year long relationship where the abuse was physical. And to be honest, throughout the whole time I was with him, I didn't really think it wasn't normal because I've experienced that in my childhood and I always knew the next day we'd get over it and be friendly. The problem was we came to [00:14:15] Australia together and we were traveling and we're in the middle of nowhere and it, the violence reached such a dangerous point that I swear it was like something in my brain just snapped. And that was the moment I was like, if I don't leave, I don't think I'll be here [00:14:30] tomorrow. And it took that level of extreme violence to realize that this wasn't okay, and our dynamic was not okay. And I take as much responsibility as him for that because I was living in this dynamic for nine years. I didn't change my behavior either. I just went along [00:14:45] with it. And I'd like to say that that was it, and I started my healing journey, but I didn't.

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[00:15:04] Cat Dunn: I know he loved me, at least in the way that he could, and I loved him the way that I could, so I jumped into the next relationship. Like a shark could smell blood in the water. He could sense that I was an easy target and that's [00:15:15] why he picked me. And yes, he wasn't physically abusive but he abused me in other ways and I was in it, but I kept thinking, well, at least he doesn't hit me.

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[00:15:39] Cat Dunn: She mentioned domestic violence and her own story. Her partner was on the podcast and they talked to each other [00:15:45] so beautifully, and I just thought, oh, is this what it's supposed to feel like? So I started working with her and I started learning about the work and mindset and questioning your thoughts, and I was in this for a year and again, nothing was really changing, but I did find a space by a good [00:16:00] share.

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[00:16:14] Cat Dunn: Cause there was certain rules [00:16:15] I had to abide by. I couldn't hang around with certain people, but one of my safe spaces was with my sister and I was going for a walk and I listened to this podcast and it was called The Trap, and it was about dv. And they started listing different types of abusers and they listed [00:16:30] one and I remember it was like the floor fell out from under me.

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[00:16:57] Cat Dunn: But it's a very, very long process [00:17:00] and I'll still be in it probably until the day I die.

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[00:17:31] Lauren Dry: You know, what, what you mentioned there is like, at least he doesn't hit me.

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[00:17:57] Cat Dunn: You know, maybe one Christmas with your parents, one Christmas with my [00:18:00] parents. That's a compromise. When someone is dictating how you live, your money, who you can see what you're wearing, hitting you, yelling at you, abusing you, that is not compromise. That is you in a unhealthy relationship.

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[00:18:30] Cat Dunn: I have an incredible business. Yes, healing is not overnight. Healing is lifelong, but I get healed on my own terms and decide who's in my life and decide how I show up and decide what relationships I'm going to be in. It sounds cliche to say there's [00:18:45] light at the end of the tunnel, but there is, you do not have to live this way, and you do not have to put up with second best which is what I was doing.

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[00:19:13] Cat Dunn: People do not [00:19:15] change unless they want to change. You can't make them change. And if you're dating someone like a narcissist, narcissists do not change because they do not see anything wrong with them. It's you. it's their fault and it's not you're fault. You just in the wrong relationship.

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[00:19:35] Lauren Dry: How do you think you can support someone who's trying to determine the difference between maybe unhealthy communication patterns and cycles, and [00:19:45] how to navigate being a person who negotiates compromise versus okay. This is someone who's dictating to me [00:20:00] and, I either have the choice to stay or go versus, having that, that middle ground while you are assessing things to determine is this a situation where there's [00:20:15] really, really unhealthy coping skills, coping patterns on both sides, and that's something that can be worked through versus, no, this is incredibly toxic. This is actual dictation. And you have already tried, and [00:20:30] you have already, used all the, the tools and skills at your disposal and, this is simply a dynamic that that is not going to, be healthy for you long term.

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[00:20:58] Cat Dunn: I am a big believer in a third [00:21:00] party. Because sometimes when you're trying to communicate in your relationship is you are bringing your own stories, your own ideas, and your own opinions. And as much as it might be toxic or it might be healthy, you need to learn how to listen as well as you speak.

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[00:21:31] Cat Dunn: It's a skill you have to learn because we are all emotional, particularly if you in the middle of a fight or disagreement, or your values don't match, but you both have to put in the work. You both have to want to make this work. Work on your own stories and work on your own [00:21:45] trauma and work on where you've come from. You will know the difference if you are having the same conversation over and over again, and it's not going anywhere. It's how the other person reacts to you. So if the person is not listening, shutting you down, maybe walking away getting, mad at you, arguing with you over and over [00:22:00] again, that's shown that they do not value your opinion.

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[00:22:06] Cat Dunn: Now, I'm not gonna say that that means they're an abuser because for all we know, maybe they have something from their past that they haven't worked on. Maybe they don't know how to communicate. I know [00:22:15] plenty of people in my life, particularly men who were told as a young lad, as a young boy, shut up.

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[00:22:38] Cat Dunn: But you'll know if you're in a situation where you are constantly just shut down, but you cannot talk to them. I was in a three and a [00:22:45] half year relationship. He never spoke to me, and I tried everything. I wrote down letters. I practiced what I was gonna say, and I just got shut down every time because he turned it around and made it my fault.

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[00:23:12] Cat Dunn: But that's why I think [00:23:15] it's really important to work with a coach or join a program where you can assess what dynamic you're actually having. See if you're both willing to do the work on yourselves, to come together and practice listening. Practice it with a friend, because often you'll find that when you're in a [00:23:30] conversation or you're trying to share something, you are automatically thinking of what to say next.

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[00:23:40] Lauren Dry: Yeah, that's huge and I think it takes so much self-trust. [00:23:45] And when you've been in toxic dynamics for a while, I think that that's the first thing to go.

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[00:24:02] Lauren Dry: And like you mentioned earlier, do some yoga, go for a walk. Am I regularly nourishing my relationship with myself so that I can trust myself when I'm in a relationship with others? And that my communication comes from a [00:24:15] place of deep self certainty as opposed to, okay, well my therapist told me to say this.

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[00:24:37] Lauren Dry: I think it's so important. That's, such a important picture around how yes, the [00:24:45] willingness of someone else is incredibly important, but we have to trust ourselves enough to be able to sit back and listen and have a clear picture of how our own communication is showing up so that sense of certainty is in any [00:25:00] dynamic, so that if there is a fear if there is a worry that there are incredibly unhealthy dynamics at play, toxic dynamics that it isn't necessarily a conversation around, oh, how do we have better communication [00:25:15] skills? Instead it's, okay, this is, this is dangerous and I need to leave.

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[00:25:35] Lauren Dry: And I think that that's so special. I'm, I'm curious how would you support someone who's trying to find their own relationship with themselves to to have [00:25:45] discernment. Around what's healthy and what's not healthy versus what's a toxic communication pattern that, so many of us have and have inherited.

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[00:26:18] Lauren Dry: I just need to work on myself. Versus no, this is, it's the dynamic itself and I need to get out before it gets worse for, for my sake, for their sake, for my [00:26:30] family's sake and because it's the right thing to do.

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[00:26:50] Cat Dunn: And to be honest, the part of me would never take any of it back because I get now to stand here and share my story and help other women to do the same, to leave relationships and own their voice. [00:27:00] When it comes to that bit of communication, self-trust, discernment my advice is, and people might hate this, is you have to speak, you have to start talking, but talking in the way of not just filling the sounds [00:27:15] and not talking around stuff.

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[00:27:35] Cat Dunn: Can I please tell you what I'm going through? Which is a huge thing to say. It's massive. I understand that. Or what I like to do is I'm a big fan of storytelling, as I [00:27:45] mentioned, say to a friend, can I tell you a story? So yesterday I came home and my partner said to me, and tell it like, that tell it in a way that it did happen to you, but you're not in it.

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[00:28:12] Cat Dunn: But the key part about this is. As you [00:28:15] tell this, and please be honest and tell something real. Tell something that maybe you don't know, whether it is abuse or whether that's a weird thing, or should I be concerned about this? Say it out loud and see how your trusted friend or trusted organization responds to you. And when you've [00:28:30] listened, reverse that in your head and say, if my best friend, my daughter, my sister, my mother had asked me that, how would I have responded?

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[00:28:58] Cat Dunn: I'll support you. I'll do this, I'll do [00:29:00] that. But we don't take our own advice. But also we shouldn't be dictating what someone else does. That's why you need someone trusted, someone who knows you, someone who can respect what you're trying to do here, because you don't want someone else's opinions and judgments being thrown on your throat.

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[00:29:33] Lauren Dry: Yeah. And I think that that's a really great view for a lot of people who are in the situation as well. If I say it, it becomes real. And what if I tell a [00:29:45] safe person and they tell me to leave and I don't straight away? What does that say about me? What does that say about my friendship?

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[00:30:13] Lauren Dry: and if [00:30:15] you are that person who's receiving that story, how would you recommend that that person holds space so that, the person who is speaking and talking about their experience can build their own relationship with self-trust? Without that [00:30:30] fear of, okay, wow, the genie's out of the bottle now. I'm gonna feel like I, I'm forced to make a decision one way or another.

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[00:30:43] Lauren Dry: Not that there is a too [00:30:45] early if you're physically unsafe, but speaking into that, I know that there are people who, and clients that I've worked with in the past who have been, stuck in that cycle of, okay, well how do I, make this something that's, the decision that I make is going to be, [00:31:00] supportive for me long term not just short term as well.

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[00:31:40] Cat Dunn: So first of all, let them share. Ask them if they want a reflection or advice, [00:31:45] and if you are going to give advice, even if you've been through this yourself. Please don't dictate how they should do it. Right. Okay. You need to leave, you need to do this. You need to have patience. No, no, no. You could offer names and numbers of organizations.

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[00:32:16] Cat Dunn: If they do go back or if they don't leave, you cannot judge them. And I know we're all judgmental in some way you cannot judge them and you cannot make it about you. I told you should leave. I should told you should do this [00:32:30] because you're not in their shoes. Financially. Maybe they can't, maybe they don't feel safe.

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[00:32:51] Cat Dunn: If they are really an important person to you, they're really in your life and you wanna support them. Make sure you fill your cup. Make sure you take care of you. Maybe you need to talk to somebody to [00:33:00] help balance out how much you're given to this person. But I didn't leave straight away. I didn't leave for a long time, and I said the same thing over and over again to my sister and my best friend.

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[00:33:27] Cat Dunn: And I know that's a lot of pressure to put on [00:33:30] somebody, and that's why say fill your own cup and have your own support network. But this is what they need. The more that they felt that they're alone or the more they're left alone, they won't leave. They'll never be able to get out.

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[00:34:04] Lauren Dry: It's incredibly important to have such a beautiful and loving and, special relationship with your husband, your partner, and the relationship that you have with others should enrich that. [00:34:15] It shouldn't be. Okay well, if there are certain things that, I can and can't say, places I can and can't go, then that's the determination of the intimacy that I have with my partner.

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[00:34:56] Lauren Dry: And some of that discernment does come from the richness of the [00:35:00] relationships around us. if I feel a strong sense of support from the people around me, then everything doesn't hinge on a word that I mentioned at the start there. The enmeshment that I have with my partner and that my safety does not rest on whether we are the same.

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[00:35:22] Cat Dunn: That's a hard one because it's such a key part of any life and any business and any social aspect to have the right [00:35:30] people around you. I would say if it's safe to do so, start thinking about where you might be able to find them. So depending on what relationship you're in, you might not be able to leave the house without your partner, et cetera.

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[00:35:57] Cat Dunn: I'm in an abusive relationship, or maybe I'm [00:36:00] a DV survivor for example. I have to go into that community. And that's not always the way it's, we're gonna keep harping on about self-trust, but it's that aspect of, well, who am I and what do I like and where do I need to be for what I'm going through right now?

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[00:36:28] Cat Dunn: But there was a little bit of a [00:36:30] risk because I might fall over and hurt my knee, which was horrifying. You don't have to look for a support community or network in the way that you think is so logical or even boring, so to speak. It doesn't have to be, I have to go join a coaching container and I have to sit and do shamanic healing.

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[00:36:57] Cat Dunn: Did you have a conversation with your hairdresser? Could [00:37:00] you pick up a magazine and talk about what's in the gossip column? Just a way to talk to somebody to interact, to have a laugh without having to be in the whole traumatic sense of I have to share this, I have to tell my story. I have to go through everything.

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[00:37:35] Cat Dunn: So look around you, look at groups and if you can't physically get out, there's so much stuff online. Look at apps of the way to connect with people, and if you are trying to rebuild your life after this, I mean, [00:37:45] I even went on Bumble for friends to try and meet people, just to have a connection where I could talk online, but I didn't have to go and meet someone in person.

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[00:38:04] Lauren Dry: I'd love to hear what you would say to perhaps the person who's listening that is incredibly good at performing. And [00:38:15] everything looks great on the outside, and maybe they have their own business, maybe they are doing very well in so many areas of their life, and they're listening to this conversation and it's scary.[00:38:30]

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[00:38:51] Lauren Dry: And everything I've worked for, everything I've built. And you know, the phrase that we used earlier is, well, it's not that bad. How would you [00:39:00] support them to find their way into self-trust without feeling like it needs to be led by a huge sense of fear or even shame, or even overwhelm that perhaps [00:39:15] finding themselves in situations like this where it's a debilitating, circumstance, particularly when they are very good at performing.

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[00:39:25] Cat Dunn: Well, I'll start off by saying I was that person.

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[00:40:12] Cat Dunn: And I actually have one client [00:40:15] that I particularly got on with. And I don't even know how I started the conversation, but it was early morning and I said something about my relationship and she just stopped and looked at me and said, you need to talk to me. And I said, no, no, it's all good. But at one moment I thought, oh, does, does she actually care?

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[00:40:57] Cat Dunn: And I think women who are high performance, [00:41:00] who are killing it, or who are very established, particularly with their reputation, et cetera, you're holding so much in.

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[00:41:13] Cat Dunn: If you can just give yourself permission. [00:41:15] I don't care five minutes a day to scream into a pillow, to to cry near the beach. It just helps to release that a little bit.

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[00:41:31] Cat Dunn: I mean, if you're in a domestic violence relationship, if you have your own business, if you have kids, you have do all things, take care of the house. It's a lot. And you're not even giving yourself five minutes a day. And people think it's a lot and it's too hard and it's too much and people don't wanna cry.

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[00:42:06] Cat Dunn: Cause I think what you're trying to do is you're trying to jump to the next step and Right, I have to leave and do this and it's too much and i've got noone to talk to. You are not doing just something for you that feels good for you, that doesn't [00:42:15] involve anybody else, that doesn't warrant being a business owner or a mother or a partner.

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[00:42:43] Cat Dunn: You still showed up and [00:42:45] did the damn thing, as they say. Even go your childhood maybe, I dunno. You won an award, you did that. Whatever it is, to give yourself examples of this isn't expected of me, but I did it anyway.

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[00:43:10] Cat Dunn: Find a childhood photo. Find just one tiny way to connect to the person [00:43:15] that you used to be, or the person who did something that got you to where you are now. Because not everything is bad. You still built something incredible and you need to remind yourself of that.

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[00:43:51] Lauren Dry: Something that like to do on the Connection Podcast is ask our guests a question that was left by a previous guest. And a question that was left by a previous [00:44:00] guest just for you, is the question, if there was one thing you could change about the world today, what would it be?

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[00:44:11] Lauren Dry: They're always good. These questions are always good they've become [00:44:15] my favorite part of every episode.

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[00:44:30] Cat Dunn: What I would change is our priorities because humans are essentially very greedy, selfish creatures.

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[00:45:09] Cat Dunn: I want us to prioritize the actual earth and our home and coming [00:45:15] together as a community. That's what we are on this planet. Yes, we're in different countries, have different socioeconomic backgrounds. We have different priorities. We have different things going on. We're all busy, but we're one community on one earth and it is our home if we don't take care of it.

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[00:45:50] Lauren Dry: That's beautiful. I'm curious, what would be a question that you would leave our next guest?

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[00:46:07] Lauren Dry: Ooh, that's a powerful one. And so I would like to ask you, if you had one piece of wisdom to leave the next [00:46:15] generation, what would it be?

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[00:46:46] Cat Dunn: So it all comes full circle and we're all going through similar things, even if it's not the same thing. But if we can come together as a community, there's literally nothing we can't do.

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[00:47:06] Cat Dunn: You can find me on all social media and my website at Cat Louise Dunn. You can also find out about my podcast and my live speakers events in [00:47:15] Melbourne at life after I left podcast on Instagram.

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[00:47:36] Lauren Dry: Please feel free to jump into the dms in Instagram with me. we're here to hold space and, we're blessed to be able to have this [00:47:45] wonderful, rich and supportive community to be able to touch on these important topics and, these valuable and precious learnings that we get to pass on and to break [00:48:00] free from.

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